Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

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Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Amir on 25 Nov 2008, 22:32

Location: Israel (Coastal area)
Habitat: grassfield
Size: ~25mm
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-1ב.jpg
-1א.jpg
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Libor on 25 Nov 2008, 23:35

Delta esuriens. I do not know any record from Israel yet. Can you put, please, the exact locality and date? Did you collect this specimen? Libor
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Amir on 26 Nov 2008, 06:36

Hi
Location: 2km south of Bat-Yam, Israel (coastal city)
Habitat: open old refuse heap located on sends subsoil
Date: October 21 2008

nor specimens collect (I'm taking only photos)

What is the distribution on this sp.?
Do u know what type of nets its build (potter like cell or other shape) and what is the typical substrate?

Tks
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Libor on 26 Nov 2008, 19:52

Hi Amir. Your animal belongs to the nominate subspecies, which is known from these countries: Oman; Iran; Pakistan; India; Sri Lanka; Myanmar; Thailand. So your observation is not too crazy, but interesting yes, of course. Sorry, I do not know many about nesting preferences of Eumeninae :-(
Please, can I use this find for our prepared paper (me and L. Castro from Spain) about interesting finds of Vespidae from the Palaearctic? In this case I need to use your whole name, which I do not know :-)
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Amir on 27 Nov 2008, 21:43

Hi

Since ur first post I got some info from expert from Tel-Aviv University entomology Dpt.
According this expert there is 2 similar specimens in the TA Uni.
Collocated at Elifaz (Arava Valley) near the border with Jordan
I also found a mention about Delta esuriens gracile from Jeddah (Saudi-Arabia)

The specimens from Elifaz r describe as Delta campaniforme gracile. Also know from Egypt (Delta campaniforme is cosmopolitan spices)
I hop to put my hand on the documents regards those specimens

For the moment I ask back this expert if he can explain these 2 names
Is D. esuriens and D. campaniforme r the same?
Or
Those r separate species with some overlap distribution?

Info regards the Delta campaniforme is more common in the web include photos and some information on lifestyle

Anyway its interesting finding and I'll try to look over in the finding area again (not far from my home) to see If I can find any others evidences

As to the photos
they r sign with my full name – Amir Weinstein
U can use them for ur work if u keep the name credit on the photos
if u need better resolution photos please note me

I'm a nature photographer (as a Hobby) and do insects photography mostly to use in my insecta blog and as documentation of our fauna, mainly in the costal belt of Israel

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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Libor on 28 Nov 2008, 00:13

Hi Amir, thanks. Delta esuriens esuriens and Delta esuriens gracile are really different subspecies. Gracile is more balckish. Delta campaniforme gracile is older name for D. e. g. Delta campaniforme is different species, which does not occur in your region. For the paper, I will use only the data sent by you with your name.
Sincerely
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Christian on 28 Nov 2008, 08:52

Hi Libor,

I am somewhat confused with your names. I have a specimen in my collection (female Egypt, Assuan, 20.9.1992, leg. me), which agree in color pattern perfectly with the present specimen. It was ID by Gusenleitner as campaniformis gracile. What is it now, or: which subspecies occur in which region? But the species seems to be variable. I have annother "c.gracile" from Malaysia, which is somewhat darker.

Regards, Christian

P.S. If you need, you may use the date.
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Amir on 28 Nov 2008, 10:07

Hi

I'm also confusing regarding the specs names

Is Delta campaniforme gracile is OLD name of Delta esuriens gracile?

U say my specimen is probably Delta esuriens gracile
The Export from Tel-Aviv Uni. say its probably Delta campaniforme gracile

Since in specimen was found far from the expecting habitat is quit interesting to know which is one

tks
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Libor on 15 Jan 2009, 10:38

Dear Amir. Back to your animal. Delta esuriens gracile is a valid name for formerly identified Delta campaniforme gracile. There are the two subspecies of Delta esuriens in West Palaearctic: nominate Dela esuriens esuriens and also Delta esuriens gracile. We (me and Christian) were little confused by your animal. At first: no record of Delta esuriens was known from Israel yet. At second: this animal corresponds with D. esuriens esuriens in few characteristics and also with D. e. gracile in other characteristics!!! It was confirmed by Leopoldo Castro yesterday, he is better than me in Eumeninae :-) It means there are only two possibilities: your animal is intermediate form between these two subspecies or it is a new subspecies!!! PLEASE, try to collect any specimens and send them to me, if you will see them again!!! Are these photos of full size or not? If not, can you send me them on lib.dvorak@seznam.cz ?
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Christian on 15 Jan 2009, 18:06

I was not confused by the specimen, but by the new name. I think the occurence of the species in Israel is not so unprobable, and - as I told above - I have a specimen in my collection from southern Egypt. So occurence in Israel is not unexpected, because it is the same distribution region. Also, I think there are no recent papers about Israelian Vespidae, and therefore there is no recent checklist of the country.
About subspecies: I am not a specialist for Vespidae in the Med region, but I think that many 'subspecies' described in the 1950th or before, are not subspecies, but color forms depending in climate or other factors. In Sphecidae or Crabronidae we cancelled a lot of these subspecies, because they do not fullfill modern criteria for subspecies, and this tendency will follow also in Vespidae when there start some modern workers.

Color changes in North-South or East-West direction is a common phenomenon in Aculeata.

Christian
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Libor on 15 Jan 2009, 19:04

It is true, Christian. From this purpose the collected and studied animal is necessary. Delta esuriens esuriens is known from Oman, Iran, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, while Delta esuriens gracile from northern ca. half of Afica including Somalia and Egypt plus Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Iran. There is a clear overlap of distribution in Oman-Iran area. Israel is more to NW... So, everything is possible: intermediate form, new suspecies, and, maybe the possible synonymy of both subspecies. Our "god of Eumenology", Josef Gusenleitner accept these subspecies, but who knows... I wish to have them in my hands and then I will see (maybe).
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Re: Delta sp (Eumenidae) for ID

Postby Amir on 21 Jan 2009, 20:45

To Libor

I have sent u the best original photos I have
Total 6 photos

Regarding capturing
I spot the specimen (probably the same one) in one location 2-3 times (deference weekends)
Now it too cold and I not seen any activities of wasps in this location
We will need to wait to the spring

I have looked also for nests and nesting location in the area but never find any

Tks

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